Categorized | RPGs

GRIM

Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Review

Posted on May 30, 2008 by GRIM


Available at Amazon.com

    Introduction
    Unlike most RPG gamers in existence I didn’t come to roleplaying via D&D. My path to gaming ran something like:

    Avid Reader > The Hobbit > Fighting Fantasy > The Lord of the Rings > MERP.

    Very much in at the deep end and I didn’t run into D&D at all as a player or a GM until I was 13, four or five years into my gaming career. When I did play it the relative lack of sophistication and over simplistic constriction on what I could do as a character made me pronounce it ‘stupid’, the final straw being when I managed to sneak up on a sleeping dragon and the rules couldn’t cope with me STABBING IT IN THE EYE before it could wake up.

    Aside from a bit of dabbling in 2nd Edition (Dark Sun, great setting, still didn’t like the rules) and in computer game versions of D&D (Torment and Balder’s Gate) that was pretty much my limit so far as it came to D&D, fantasy appealed (Dragon Warriors, WFRP and others) but D&D didn’t because I didn’t really buy into its sacred cows so much.

    3rd Edition though, and the OGL that went with it, dragged me back into D&D. Now I could engage with it on a design level and the open nature meant not only could I ‘fix’ it, but I could trade those fixes and ideas with others and get remuneration for it. Which was great! d20 had pretences at being a generic system, but it really wasn’t, it got shoehorned into every possible setting and genre under the sun, even when it didn’t fit and eventually the d20 bubble burst. and things settled down again.

    What we were left with, though, was a rambling and over-bloated beast of a game with masses of WOTC and third party supplements sprawling in all directions, a behemoth filled with munchkinism and twinkish combination exploits so foul that even RIFTS players would turn their nose up at them.

    Now we’re on to 4th Edition and I’ve been deliberately staying out of the gossip around it as best I can to come at the books fresh. I won my copies from Dungeon Magazine for the ‘best adventure I never wrote’ which should be published sometime before June 6th, but since I had books coming for free I didn’t see any harm in getting a sneak peak at what would be coming in the post. As such some of these comments are provisional and may be revised when I get to see actual, physical copies.

    Going into this I’m coming from two directions, as both a consumer and a producer. As a consumer does 4th Edition deliver the type of game that I want to play? Does it compel and interest me? As a producer I’m looking at it and trying to anticipate where the market might go, what products might emerge, how the system might be customised and altered (if at all) and where problems might arise.

    Overview
    Reading through the books 4th Edition feels, to me, very much like an introductory game in a way that 3rd Edition wasn’t. The look, the feel, the language all seem, to me, to be angled towards bringing in new players. This is a really good thing, obviously, but I think that the targetting of the MMO market – which seems to be the aim – is a miscalculation. TTRPGs can’t beat MMOs at their own game, D&D aping MMORPGs is a bit like having your dad go through a midlife crisis, dying his hair, driving a porsche and trying to pass himself off as ‘Emo’. It’s a little embarrassing and not what he’s really good at. I think it may have been more productive to go after the areas where TTRPGs still excel over CRPGs and MMORPGs but hey, nobody listens to me.

    I’ll wait to pass judgement on the D&D Insider computer platform but my gut instinct is that this is a miscalculation as well, charging the same amount as a typical MMO subscription for what amounts to a static graphical chess set that doesn’t even take care of some of the rolls etc for you and a few other bits and pieces that they are yet to prove they can deliver seems ludicrous to me, if it’s a choice between their WoW subscription and their D&D Insider subscription people aren’t going to go for D&DI in my opinion. If it were five or perhaps ten dollars a month I can see people subbing to it on the side but this, to me, seems overpriced.

    Artwork
    The three books seem to be going against the grain in terms of where graphic design has been heading in RPG books since the 90s. While the level of production is professional and the artwork standard good overall there’s very little ‘feel’ to the pages. No faux-parchment effect or little notebook conceits, very little ornamentation. It is very clean, very clear, quite minimalistic. On the one hand this makes the books much easier on the eye and a lot more readable, on the other hand it makes them feel rather clinical, perhaps not coincidentally like a computer game manual.

    The artwork is fairly good throughout, though there are some disappointing pieces that have a washed out look and what appears to be CGI derived imagery that doesn’t really fit. While the overall art is good it lacks cohesion. Love it or loathe it 3rd Edition had a consistent look to it ‘dungeonpunk’ while 4th Edition is a bit all over the place. The strongest theme to come through is one, again, of computer-gamey feel, a sort of pseudo-anime, pseudo-Warhammer/WoW effort of massive shoulder pads and even larger weapons. Otherwise the rest of the art seems a bit all over the place, technically good but a little schizophrenic.

    Writing
    The writing is fairly clear throughout but a problem I noticed was that things were introduced before they were defined so, for example, if you were reading off the power descriptions they might have a formula. 2 x [Q] + Snarf, but you don’t find out what the Q stands for or what a Snarf is until page two-hundred and twelve. On a first read through this lead to a sense of bewilderment and frustration, unable to understand quite what I was reading – and this for someone who has several systems all but memorised.

    Another flaw I felt existed in the writing was that there was no attempt, not even a weak one really, to reconcile the rules with reality, or even game reality. Things work as they do because the rules say that they do and that’s pretty much it. As someone who values immersion while roleplaying I can’t help but feel that this will detract from that experience, and that’s not the only place it occurs. Throughout the game characters aren’t really treated as characters so much as playing pieces, arrays of powers and abilities rather than personalities. The roles are described, again, in MMO terms so you end up not so much creating the persona of Corvin Ravenfeather the half-elf rogue but rather your ‘Assasination/Damage specced Rogue’. While there are paragraphs here and there that encourage roleplaying the overall feel is more like a character card for playing Descent than an actual character role to get into.

    The DMs guide is a triumph though, at least in writing. There’s great advice in there on player types and typical troubleshooting and it’s helpful without being patronising, something that occasionally shines through in the Player’s Guide. I particularly liked the boxed out hints and tips, which are very human comments from the developers that give you more of an insight and connection to the game than much else that’s present.

    There’s no real setting to speak of, as such and while much is familiar much is also different, different gods for example and different races, but this comes more under discussion of the rules.

    Rules
    Over all I think the rules are an improvement and a clarification from third edition and they have been streamlined and simplified, at the basic level, by a great deal. I can see this speeding up play and making things much easier for the GM in particular – prepping monsters and encounters is now much faster, but all of this simplicity comes at a cost of depth. Where D&D was more like a bag of lego bricks before – a little crude but you could put it together any way you liked, now it’s more like a plastic model. The pieces go together certain ways and you’re told how it should be. Everything is channelled, quantified, laid out as to how it ‘should’ be and while you can fiddle around a bit you’re really only making cosmetic changes.

    There is a massively heavy emphasis on miniatures and battlemats, though different parts of the book swing between saying their optional and implying that they’re essential. While one could easily enough convert the distances and areas back to feet rather than squares it is a pain in the arse to do so and a pain that they’re so heavily pushing the minis. I hate using minis and battlemats unless I’m war or skirmish gaming, I feel it detracts massively from the RP but I can see where the business decision comes in here, clearly the figures make the big bucks so anything that encourages their use has to be ‘good’. I disagree but then money talks in these instances.

    Another thing that has effectively been lost is the capability to multiclass freely and easily. Now you spend feats to gain qualities from other classes but you are still pretty much stuck in your role and using these multiclass feats is ‘weak sauce’ compared to previous methods of doing so. While you can customise within your role and build to a couple of different specifications this felt stifling to my creativity when I was trying to create a character I really liked, especially at first level. Multiclassing was always an ad hoc solution to the problem of character customisation but it was still better than the solution being presented so on that score I’m not a happy bunny.

    The role enforcement problem is made worse by the new skill system. You no longer have varying skill levels, you either have a skill or you don’t and that only gives you a +5 bonus within the area of that skill, this means a great deal more emphasis is weighed upon Ability scores and, even more importantly, level. Level rules everything now, giving bonuses across the board and the rewards for levelling are much greater than in 3rd Edition as well, what feels like excessive Ability score increases and a wealth of new powers.

    I found the choices for races in the new book peculiar, to excise character types people like and are used to for the Dragonkin, Eladrin (Elves 2.0) and tieflings (but no Aasimar) seems a peculiar choice to me. The exotic and interesting is no longer exotic and interesting if it’s the default. It would have made more sense, to me, to retain the Half Orc, Gnome and to have the Warforged in there and to put these new ones in a follow up Player’s Guide – but then maybe that’s the point to put familiar classes and races in additional player’s guides to help them sell, if so that’s a touch cynical but perhaps good business sense.

    In classes we lose the Sorcerer – the change in magic rules means the spontaneous caster is no longer needed as much (though a magic user with more lower power At Will/Encounter spells would simulate it quite well) but we gain the Warlord – a leader type – and the Warlock, a pact-based magic user. Again these feel like odd choices to me, better suited to expansion books than to the core book, I assume the Warlock is there to appeal to the MMO crowd but the Warlord I can’t particularly place, other than they perhaps wanted another ‘buffing’ class.

    Feats are reduced in importance compared to the class specific powers and capabilities and many are, additionally, streamed by class themselves. In some ways this helps remove a problem of ‘feat bloat’ but on the other hand we now have many, many, many more categories which can bloat independently, all the different tiers of abilities and abilities relating to the Paragon and Epic levels of play (11+ and 21+).

    Another metagame intrusion is the idea of ‘respeccing’ (sorry, retraining) allowing you to replace older, weaker powers with more powerful versions as you advance, effectively rewriting your character’s history and allowing you – if you’re careful – to maximise your potential every level by playing the system, playing the game rather than playing your character.

    One ray of sunshine amongst all the metagaming and immersion breaking is the expanded concept of skill based encounters. These are now more of a creative chess game somewhat akin to the process of making an extended challenge in HeroQuest. Characters get to RP creatively and use their skills creatively to solve extended problems such as, say, tracking enemies through a forest or seducing a noble’s daughter. I like the idea as presented and see lots of RP opportunities from it but it also made me feel that in inexperienced groups the skill rolling would replace the RP and the natural back and forth of play.

    Long term I can see problems with the approach that WOTC have taken in 4th Edition. While the game has been stripped back and rebooted and while the 3rd party market has calmed down there are now many more things that could suffer game bloat, rather than classes, prestige classes and feats we now have classes, paragon classes, epic destinies, at will powers, encounter powers, daily powers and multi-level equipment which means 4th Edition could end up sprawling out of control twice as fast as third edition did. The other problem is that even though the system is streamlined and simplified there are not twice as many complications, modifiers, exceptions and so forth which in their own way will slow everything right back down again.

    Upsides

    * Clean, crisp, readable.
    * Honest effort to reach new gamers.
    * Forward thinking approach to support.

    Downsides

    * Misguided attempt to engage MMO players.
    * Returns to the relative constriction of Basic/2nd Edition
    * Miniatures emphasis overwhelming.

    Score
    Style: 4 (Good but falls short of what’s expected of the industry leader)
    Substance: 3 (All rules and no inspiration makes Jack a dull boy)
    Overall: 3.5

    Final Verdict
    My score would suggest that I rate 4th Edition as slightly higher than average. This may not be revealing my views sufficiently. The Substance score is low (average) because these corebooks do not contain anything in the way of setting information or content past some discussion of dungeons and ruins. These three books represent a game engine and advice and little more. I am almost certain that the new limited three book setting productions will be excellent and that they will provide the substance that the corebooks lack.

    In my opinion 4th Edition does deal with many of the flaws from third edition, but it also embraces others – such as metagaming and optimisation. This can be dealt with by a good GM but I have to assess the books from a position of relative neutrality, as such I can’t assume every group has a brilliant GM or non-abusive players.

    While I have deep reservations about D&D Insider I hope it succeeds and while I have even deeper reservations about trying to beat the MMOs at their own game I do wish D&D 4th Edition and Wizards the very best of luck with it, especially in roping in new gamers. I hope to be writing for 4th Edition – it does make that job a lot easier – and Postmortem Studios will definitely be supporting it.

    Review by James ‘Grim’ Desborough

    Flames Rising PDF Store

    Tags | , , ,

    Print This Post

    124 Responses to “Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Review”

    1. Agis Silverfish says:

      It all started as a wargame and it ends as a wargame.

      I was thinking of getting the books and your comments have been very informative. Thank you.

      Reply

    2. Daniel says:

      I feel like the class system constrains and channels role playing in a way to make RPs more like sitcoms. 4th edition increases these problems exponentially. GURPS is a technical, but diverse solution in some ways.

      Reply

    3. Lee says:

      4th edition was overly simplified and underwhelming. The game was not a challenge, RP was shoehorned, and characters only really had one choice as they leveled. We moved to Pathfinder after a year of 4th edition and it was the greatest decision I ever made.

      Side note, dripping with irony that your final verdict is a score of 3.5

      Reply

      Cam Reply:

      You say the game is not a challenge. Have you ever thought about putting in a few more monsters, or a single monster of a higher level? Or even increasing the difficulty of a skill challenge?

      You also say RP was shoehorned. I SERIOUSLY disagree with this. You don’t need rules or lists to tell you how to play your character. If you think powers and skills get in the way of RP, then remember that roleplaying cannot be “rolled up” on a chart.

      Reply

    4. Lor says:

      I attempted playing 3.5e a few years ago because my friends seemed to have fun playing it. I couldn’t get past reading the rules; it was too overwhelming and I got frustrated so easily because it was so much to read, and everything was so confusing. Even when my friends tried explaining it as best as possible, I just couldn’t do it. So much equipment to choose from, so many skills. Creating a character was so tedious and time consuming that by the time I was finished, I didn’t even want to play. I kindly told my pals that I wasn’t interested after our first session.

      Now, just a few months ago, my roommates began playing Dungeons and dragons. They were making new characters, and I was astounded that the character sheets were only two pages, with the second one not even needed. They said they were playing 4e, and that it was much different than 3.5e.

      And boy where they right. Creating a character only took like half an hour, and we were playing that same night after I thumbed through the player’s guide.

      You can give it low reviews for it all you want, but for a new player like me, 4e is a life saver. 3.5e has so many rules and technicalities and other stuff to thumb through, and if that’s what you want, well then more power to you! For newbies, 4e is the way to go. I’m having loads of fun, and everything else I wanted to know was supplemented with Player’s Handbook 2.

      My Kobold Rogue is a heck of a lot more fun in 4e than he was in 3.5e.

      I’m a DnD newb who’s attempted 3.5e, and I find 4e to be just great.

      Reply

    5. Brian says:

      “Lor’s” comment reeks of online advertising/review forging. Trust me, I used to work for a company that did it.

      Reply

      Cam Reply:

      Problem is, that’s how I got into 4e as well. Except I left 2e instead of 3.5e. Don’t spot conspiracies where none exist.

      Reply

    6. Sean says:

      @Brian I don’t think thats right to say, I had a similar experience, I was new to TTRPG’s and I wanted to try 3.5, but the rules were way to much. But then I tried 4e and I found it to be much easier to use. It’s fine if you like 3.5, it’s simply apples to oranges.

      Reply

    7. mike says:

      4E was made for easy play for anyone that has played a MMORPG. It amazes me that ANY young person who uses the internet has problems reading a book. They can multitask on faceBook, twitter, blog, all while playing WoW yet can’t read the players manual.

      All you need is the combat section and your class and race, the rest your friends should have been able to help you with. Back in the day there was no online help and you and your friends had to wing it. If none of you had played you had to figure out what the rules meant if it was at all vague. There are so many resources available this is never a problem these days.

      But you are right, 4E is such a watered down version of an RPG that at first level it is very easy to create a character. Just like the original red box was pretty easy to get into. As you get use to a game system you will want a lot more depth, that is why there are other games that offer a whole lot more and why they are already killin 4E and 4E reboot known as essential. 4 years and 2 rulesets and they already have to scrap it. Says something doesn’t it.

      Reply

      WiredNovacane Reply:

      I wholesomely agree. 4th Edition is more of a watered down version of 3.0/3.5 and is directed more towards the MMORPG generation of fantasy role play new comers that seem to bypass the old fashioned role playing hobby. I will always hold the seemingly obsolete 3.5 with the highest regard because of it’s complexity and elaborated details that breathed more practicality into Dungeon and Dragons. I’m a fan of heavily detailed and complex gaming, i like role playing games like Demon Souls, Fall Out and Elder Scrolls over MMORPGs due it’s broader flexibility in options and their elaborate detailing and story telling. I feel all MMOs have a very long way to go to match these top single player role playing games and Dungeons and Dragons 3.0-3.5 was more favorable because it brought that diversity and detailed role playing to a united crowd of players. It wasn’t simple but the complexity allowed anything to be possible and detailed. 4th edition is more fantasy than science fiction to me and that dis-balance makes it more directed towards the younger crowds of players that are too lazy and careless to bother about detailed rules and tactical role play where every decision can make or break their character and role playing experience. I’m 23 years old, first time I heard of Dungeons and Dragons i was 14, I experienced 3.0 gaming and fell in love with how detailed and elaborate it was, after 3.5 i was more impressed in how certain features were fairly consolidated. But when 4th edition debuted I was confused with what Dungeons and Dragons was up, because they did away with so many of the rules and gaming mechanics that made up the bountiful world of 3.5. I felt like I was starting from nearly zero again and my character looked more like a cartoon than a well fashioned character with a practical background and hard earned place in the Dungeons and Dragons world. In short details 4th edition is more dummy proof, making it easier and more playable and although deep details and elaborate functionality is my forte and preferred taste, I still respect that because Dungeons and Dragons 3.0/3.5 would never have made it this far into the fantasy MMO riddle world of role players. It is an acquired taste, indeed to those used to the darker and sometimes sour world of 3.0/3.5.

      Reply

    8. aye says:

      You can’t mix table top gaming with computer gaming, it’s like comparing apples and steak. New kids are lazy, that’s why they couldn’t be bothered with table top gaming, it’s left to use “old timers” to play it and enjoy each other’s actual physical company and have a few cold ones at the same time: all for the pure enjoyment of it all. The early days, describing the dungeons etc…, although that may have taken 4 hours to get through a few rooms, you were immersed in your own imagination, rules etc… came as they went. Most of the time we changed them to be more realistic and bypassed half of them. But now, the new gen is so focused on each little rule and detail that the imagination is now bypassed.

      As a company, I would have done the same for 4th edition to get new players. But, like all things, the old is better. You see very few kids listening to oldies for music, but it is the best music. Computer games can never be compared to table top.

      Long live the top of my table.

      Reply

      Lily Reply:

      Agreed!

      Reply

    9. BANE says:

      Hell, I only play D&D Basic and AD&D 2nd Ed. 3.0/3.5 is terrible and slow. 4th is okay, but nothing beats the classic old school D&D/AD&D. I like for my players to walk down a hallway without ability checks or rolling dice every two steps. 3.0/3.5 is the absolute worse thing to ever happen to the D&D brand.

      Reply

    10. Maniac says:

      I started playing Advanced 2nd Ed DnD a lifetime ago, moved up to 3 and then finally to 3.5. The rules are overwhelming but i like that, it has most situations covered and has an answer for 95% of things. If the DM does a slight amount of prep the game doesnt drag and flows fine. I’ve been playing DnD for about 18 years. 4th edition is ridiculous. It stripped the game down into a mindless rip off of WoW. Character customization was what was so great about DnD. Building your character, planning what feats and skills you would raise when you leveled up, picking new spells, etc. Almost all of this is gone with 4th edition. Thanks WotC for trying to suck more and more money out of your customers. Also, multiple Players Handbooks and Dungeon Masters Guides. There are 1/10th of the rules as 3.5 edition and your making 3 times the books. Fail

      Reply

    Leave a Reply

    11 Tales of Ghostly Horror

      Monthly Newsletter Sign Up

      join our monthly mailing list
      * indicates required

      The Devil’s Night WoD SAS

      Free Devil's Night | White Wolf

      Become a Fan on Facebook!

      Reviews Wanted!

      The new Review Guidelines have been posted on the Flames Rising website. We are currently seeking a few good reviewers to help us expand our collection of horror and dark fantasy reviews. RPGs, fiction, movies, video games and more are all welcome on the site...

      What do you get out of it?

      Beyond helping out fellow Flames Rising readers by letting them know what you think of these products, we're giving away some pretty cool stuff. Regular Reviewers can earn free products to review, which is their to keep after the review is submitted to the site.

      Note: We are especially looking for folks interested in reviewing eBooks (both Fiction & Comics). We have lots of great titles in digital format and even get advance copies sometimes.

      Use the Contact Page to submit reviews or let us know if you have any questions.